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This page collects suggestions for improving the python.org web site. Perhaps we'll
manage to implement some of them at PyCon?
= pydotorg Improvement Ideas =
Line 4: Line 3:
Aahz: I've been thinking (without much energy to do it) that the Community
link on the main page ought to point at a new page instead of the
incredibly stale PSA link.
Line 8: Line 4:
Aahz: While doing that re-org, perhaps the SIGs
link ought to be moved and the Beginner's link replace it, with a
prominent link on the Newbies page to "What is Python?"
This page collects suggestions for improving the [[PythonWebsite|PythonWebsite]], this wiki and related tools.
Line 12: Line 6:
AMK: Suggested top links, in this order: "Home", "About", "Download", "Documentation",
"Help", "Search". That's 7 links, not 8; any suggestions for one more?
Line 15: Line 7:
AMK: the top page is too long.
Discussion of various bits around Python websites takes place on the following mailing lists:

 General Web site (architecture, design, integration)::
 [[http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www|pydotorg-www]]

 Bug tracker::
 [[http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tracker-discuss|tracker-discuss]]

 Package index::
 [[https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/|distutils-sig]]

 Development workflow::
 [[https://discuss.python.org/c/core-workflow|Core Workflow topic on Discourse]]


Please choose the correct list, and try not to cross-post.




== A bigger picture ==


Improving a web site is a process of enhancing user experience so that information is found faster and easier. Major things that need improvement can be obvious to many people, but they may seem like tasks of epic proportions, too big for an individual to consider tackling on their own. For example, implementing single sign-on for all Python services, OpenID support, an online edito for docs - these are all non-trivial tasks that require knowledge of the existing site architecture and access to the site code and supporting tools. There are also features that matters to every one personally, and these are not obvious for everyone else: automatic subscription to Wiki pages upon editing, various design improvements.


But the process of improvement has to solicit feedback in order to capture ideas about areas of improvement, and this channel for feedback should be easy to reach and visible to others. An example of such a channel is the online manual comments that one sees in the documentation for technologies such as PHP, MySQL [[http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/multiple-tablespaces.html|(example)]] and PostgreSQL.


A lot of information causes frustration: that's why people prefer Twitter to Blogger. Too much "[[Inventory|inventory]]" in the room makes it hard to navigate and notice things that are needed. The process of cleanup should involve throwing unused stuff away, leaving relevant and updated information in place. Naturally, the Wiki has accumulated lots of arguably unused and dated pages, but various python.org pages are affected as well. Too much information reduces the "fun factor": a separate status page will help people see what's going on and let them have more fun by focusing their work and enabling them to work together with others.


== Miscellaneous ==

 * (done) Fix webmaster@python.org response bug (per Issue:7929)
 * Add link to website repository at https://github.com/python/pythondotorg see [[https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/pull/217|this pull request]].
 * (done) Badly need bug tracker for python.org website ([[http://psf.upfronthosting.co.za/roundup/meta/issue340|metatracker issue340]])
  * I wonder if roundup is better than some hosted solution -- [[techtonik|techtonik]] 2010-04-06 14:06:34
    * Now [[https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/issues|on GitHub]] -- SumanaHarihareswara <<DateTime(2019-08-23T06:39:43-0400)>>


== Web Site ==

Note: we should probably review these, see which ones are still problems and file them [[https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/issues|on GitHub]], and then remove this section. -- SumanaHarihareswara <<DateTime(2019-08-23T06:39:43-0400)>>

 * CSS: Increase interval between list items to be the same as between lines - compare http://www.python.org/dev/doc/ and http://www.python.org/dev/pydotorg/
 * (done) Add #pydotorg to http://python.org/community/irc/
 * (done) Rename "Internet Relay Chat" in navigation menu to IRC as it is the preferred name most people look for
 * Add paragraph anchors to site generator
 * Add an RSS feed and/or mailing list for python security advisories
   * Now that [[https://mail.python.org/archives/list/security-announce@python.org/latest|the security-announce mailing list is on Mailman 3]], resolving [[https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/issues/51|this HyperKitty issue]] would add a syndication feed -- SumanaHarihareswara <<DateTime(2019-08-23T06:39:43-0400)>>
 * Add release timer and calendar to [[http://www.python.org/dev/|Core Development]] page
 * Have a '''report bug''' or '''suggest a change''' link leading to corresponding bug tracker ([[PythonWebsiteCreatingNewTickets|PythonWebsiteCreatingNewTickets]] wiki link) (issue Issue:8146)
 * (done) http://www.python.org/download/windows/ should indicate latest supported Python for old versions of Microsoft systems (see issue Issue:8146). Note: despite being marked done, don't see any indication in this direction; Windows releases currently indicate when they can't run on XP or earlier, but nothing says which release could be used on XP. On Jan 14 2020 Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2 go off long-term support, so reminder that the download page will need updating at that point.
 * (done) http://www.python.org/Jobs.html should be moved to a database with a secure and user-friendly front-end. (Wikis won't do it for many people we're targeting.)
 * Add '''core development/source''' page with a table of



||<tablestyle="border: 1px solid #000;">Python Version ||ViewVC ||SVN ||Snapshot Download ||Code Coverage ||[[BuildBots|BuildBots]] ||
||2.7 ||http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk/ ||http://svn.python.org/projects/python/trunk ||http://svn.python.org/snapshots/ ||??? ||??? ||





== Wiki Content ==

If you find stale pages, please add here, this might be useful work for volunteers

 * The first two links at PythonEditors#Other_Resources are stale
 * MacPython/PythonDistributionsForMac does not mention homebrew
 * MacPython has a link for 10.5 Leopard but MacOS has moved on a number of releases from there. There should be something on the mess with Apple's buggy tcl/tk, how to not create conflicts with the system version of Python, etc.
 * BeginnerErrorsWithPythonProgramming could really stand updating and being made more useful. There are more common beginner problems than this. The page should focus on how to anticipate and not have these be such problems rather than idly speculating on whether the language could change to eliminate these "problems".
 * BeginnersGuide/Programmers could be improved: some links are probably stale (e.g. the Google course pointed at code.google.com, which is obsolete though usually still redirects correctly). It's just a Big Lump of Links, that's not very helpful in a beginner picking what to pursue (maybe add some curated mini-reviews?). Not sure - make suggestions!
 * Clean up [[CategoryJython|CategoryJython]]
 * Clean up Community/Python Writers page, above all: remove dead links
  * How to scan [[DeadLinks|DeadLinks]] in Python? -- [[techtonik|techtonik]] 2010-03-16 08:36:41
 * Shorten URLs - remove /moin/ prefix from [[SiteImprovements#Wiki|http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements#Wiki]]
  * This requires moving Jython wiki from [[jython/|http://wiki.python.org/jython/]] to http://wiki.jython.org/ and placing a temporary redirect on the previous places. -- [[techtonik|techtonik]] 2010-03-16 08:39:34


 * Rationalise the natural language coverage (merging the "new" language pages with the old ones)


== Wiki Theme ==


 * Upgrade the Python theme to the one used by [[http://wiki.europython.eu/|the EuroPython Wiki site]] (./) Added to [[InterWikiMap|InterWikiMap]] as `Issue`. For example: Issue:7942 in the tracker. -- [[PaulBoddie|PaulBoddie]] 2010-03-15 15:32:26
  * Even though natural syntax would be more welcomed this is a nice helper. Are there any side effects if the prefix is added lowercased? Seems like is still not possible for it to show word "issue" automatically. -- [[techtonik|techtonik]] 2010-03-15 16:47:59
  * I'm just following the [[InterWiki|InterWiki]] conventions, really. I'm sure I should use `PythonIssue:xxx` instead, but I suppose `Issue:xxx` is unlikely to be used by accident. As for the prefix, it's only included in the title for the icon, I think. And as for autolinking, I think that would require a parser extension or modification. I'd personally be comfortable with a macro (like `<<PythonIssue(xxx)>>`), but then people would need to know how to use it, and it wouldn't obviously be natural to write. -- [[PaulBoddie|PaulBoddie]] 2010-03-15 16:56:18

 * Add "automatically subscribe to pages I edit" plugin from http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinPatch/AutomaticSubscriptionOnEditPreference to increase people awareness about changes going on on the wiki.
 * '''Fix bug''' can't rename the page (A page with the name 'xxx' already exists. Try a different name.)
  * Can you give a walk-through of how to reproduce this? -- [[PaulBoddie|PaulBoddie]] 2010-03-15 15:44:04
   * Try to rename [[ReStructuredText|http://wiki.python.org/moin/ReStructuredText]] to [[reStructuredText|http://wiki.python.org/moin/reStructuredText]] without being superuser



 * Remove annoying "captcha" for sane users who logged in
  * This just needs the feature to be [[HelpOnTextChas|configured properly]]. Then a system is required to add people to the exempt users list after their intentions have been verified. -- [[PaulBoddie|PaulBoddie]] 2010-03-15 15:44:04
  * Is there an automatic group for users with 10 or more successful edits? -- [[techtonik|techtonik]] 2010-03-15 17:56:09
  * I think it all has to be done manually. It would be quite easy for spammers to make accounts, perform edits manually and then automate more spamming. The MoinMoin:TextCha page has plenty of discussion about this, but I agree that it would be nicer to have some kind of workflow in the Wiki itself. -- [[PaulBoddie|PaulBoddie]] 2010-03-15 19:21:55
  * It is easier for them to automate [[TextCha|TextCha]] entry than enter it 10 times manually and in the end have their accounts banned. -- [[techtonik|techtonik]] 2010-03-16 08:25:16

 * Add improved event calendar support such as that provided by [[http://moinmo.in/MacroMarket/EventAggregator|EventAggregator]] or another similar extension
 * Switch to [[http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/WikiFormatting|TracWiki syntax]]
  * Why? Trac's syntax, apart from the stuff that's identical to MoinMoin's syntax, is like the old MoinMoin syntax, and although it's better than MediaWiki syntax in various ways (take the [[http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Links|link syntax]] and its inconsistencies), switching to it would be like reverting a number of fixes that MoinMoin applied when its syntax (particularly the [[MoinMoin:LinkPattern|link syntax]]) was changed in 1.6. I don't deny that bits of it can be complicated, but that's not usually the basic stuff. -- [[PaulBoddie|PaulBoddie]] 2010-03-15 15:32:26
  * Using Trac for various Python (and not only Python) I got used to separate [[[http://links/|http://links]] with description using space] - as it is more readable. I can't see where [MoinMoin:LinkPattern link syntax] will conflict with anything. Anyway it is the last point in this list. -- [[techtonik|techtonik]] 2010-03-15 17:27:00
  * I've become accustomed to the newer syntax now, and I think there's probably some reason why they moved away from the older syntax, possibly for extensibility reasons where spaces can appear naturally and confuse the process of isolating arguments. I've not been too impressed by the Wiki capabilities of Trac, but that might have something to do with the visually unimpressive styling of Trac for most installations and the lack of MoinMoin conveniences, not the syntax as such. -- [[PaulBoddie|PaulBoddie]] 2010-03-15 19:21:55
  * MoinMoin is a general purpose wiki like [[MediaWiki|MediaWiki]] and it may happen that old syntax created problems with porting content between them. However, for software projects, Trac and [[http://code.google.com/p/support/wiki/WikiSyntax|Google Code]] were inspired by the old variant of markup and there is [[http://code.google.com/p/support/issues/list|no single ticket]] to switch to MediaWiki. I would really like to see reasoning behind the choice in MoinMoin 1.6, and know if there is a preference to turn on the old markup. -- [[techtonik|techtonik]] 2010-03-16 08:20:29
  * A good summary of why the syntax was changed was posted in an IRC conversation on the #moin channel, and I've uploaded it [[SiteImprovements/WikiSyntaxComparison|here]] -- [[PaulBoddie|PaulBoddie]] 2010-04-23 11:36:53


 * There should be a "Logout" link in the left navigation (Actions)
  * Don't you see a "Logout" link under "User" or are you not using the new (and awesome) default theme? -- [[PaulBoddie|PaulBoddie]] 2011-03-25 20:53:00
   * I was using the "python" theme, now I changed to "<Default>" and I can see the "Logout", Thanks ! But it would be nice, if we can add a "Logout" link for the "python" theme. -- [[BaijuMuthukadan|BaijuMuthukadan]] 2012-10-22 07:18:08
    * I think the "python" theme is unmaintained. There was a suggestion that the new default theme, also known as "europython", be renamed to "python" and thus appear for everyone who has chosen "python" as their theme, but that could be confusing for people. -- [[PaulBoddie|PaulBoddie]] 2011-03-25 23:01:36





== Broken Links ==


 * Link for homepage and download on [[http://pypi.python.org/pypi?:action=search&term=scapy&submit=search|http://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=scapy&submit=search]]
  * Homepage: http://www.secdev.org/projects/scapy/
  * Download: http://www.secdev.org/projects/scapy/files/scapy-latest.tar.gz



== Core Developer Web Resources ==


The [[CoreDevHelperTools|Core Development Helper Tools]] page discusses enhancements for version control and bug tracking, particularly with regard to integration.


----

[[CategoryPythonWebsite|CategoryPythonWebsite]]

pydotorg Improvement Ideas

This page collects suggestions for improving the PythonWebsite, this wiki and related tools.

Discussion of various bits around Python websites takes place on the following mailing lists:

General Web site (architecture, design, integration)

pydotorg-www

Bug tracker

tracker-discuss

Package index

distutils-sig

Development workflow

Core Workflow topic on Discourse

Please choose the correct list, and try not to cross-post.

A bigger picture

Improving a web site is a process of enhancing user experience so that information is found faster and easier. Major things that need improvement can be obvious to many people, but they may seem like tasks of epic proportions, too big for an individual to consider tackling on their own. For example, implementing single sign-on for all Python services, OpenID support, an online edito for docs - these are all non-trivial tasks that require knowledge of the existing site architecture and access to the site code and supporting tools. There are also features that matters to every one personally, and these are not obvious for everyone else: automatic subscription to Wiki pages upon editing, various design improvements.

But the process of improvement has to solicit feedback in order to capture ideas about areas of improvement, and this channel for feedback should be easy to reach and visible to others. An example of such a channel is the online manual comments that one sees in the documentation for technologies such as PHP, MySQL (example) and PostgreSQL.

A lot of information causes frustration: that's why people prefer Twitter to Blogger. Too much "inventory" in the room makes it hard to navigate and notice things that are needed. The process of cleanup should involve throwing unused stuff away, leaving relevant and updated information in place. Naturally, the Wiki has accumulated lots of arguably unused and dated pages, but various python.org pages are affected as well. Too much information reduces the "fun factor": a separate status page will help people see what's going on and let them have more fun by focusing their work and enabling them to work together with others.

Miscellaneous

Web Site

Note: we should probably review these, see which ones are still problems and file them on GitHub, and then remove this section. -- SumanaHarihareswara 2019-08-23 10:39:43

Python Version

ViewVC

SVN

Snapshot Download

Code Coverage

BuildBots

2.7

http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk/

http://svn.python.org/projects/python/trunk

http://svn.python.org/snapshots/

???

???

Wiki Content

If you find stale pages, please add here, this might be useful work for volunteers

  • The first two links at PythonEditors#Other_Resources are stale

  • MacPython/PythonDistributionsForMac does not mention homebrew

  • MacPython has a link for 10.5 Leopard but MacOS has moved on a number of releases from there. There should be something on the mess with Apple's buggy tcl/tk, how to not create conflicts with the system version of Python, etc.

  • BeginnerErrorsWithPythonProgramming could really stand updating and being made more useful. There are more common beginner problems than this. The page should focus on how to anticipate and not have these be such problems rather than idly speculating on whether the language could change to eliminate these "problems".

  • BeginnersGuide/Programmers could be improved: some links are probably stale (e.g. the Google course pointed at code.google.com, which is obsolete though usually still redirects correctly). It's just a Big Lump of Links, that's not very helpful in a beginner picking what to pursue (maybe add some curated mini-reviews?). Not sure - make suggestions!
  • Clean up CategoryJython

  • Clean up Community/Python Writers page, above all: remove dead links
  • Shorten URLs - remove /moin/ prefix from http://wiki.python.org/moin/SiteImprovements#Wiki

  • Rationalise the natural language coverage (merging the "new" language pages with the old ones)

Wiki Theme

  • Upgrade the Python theme to the one used by the EuroPython Wiki site (./) Added to InterWikiMap as Issue. For example: 7942 in the tracker. -- PaulBoddie 2010-03-15 15:32:26

    • Even though natural syntax would be more welcomed this is a nice helper. Are there any side effects if the prefix is added lowercased? Seems like is still not possible for it to show word "issue" automatically. -- techtonik 2010-03-15 16:47:59

    • I'm just following the InterWiki conventions, really. I'm sure I should use PythonIssue:xxx instead, but I suppose Issue:xxx is unlikely to be used by accident. As for the prefix, it's only included in the title for the icon, I think. And as for autolinking, I think that would require a parser extension or modification. I'd personally be comfortable with a macro (like <<PythonIssue(xxx)>>), but then people would need to know how to use it, and it wouldn't obviously be natural to write. -- PaulBoddie 2010-03-15 16:56:18

  • Add "automatically subscribe to pages I edit" plugin from http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinPatch/AutomaticSubscriptionOnEditPreference to increase people awareness about changes going on on the wiki.

  • Fix bug can't rename the page (A page with the name 'xxx' already exists. Try a different name.)

  • Remove annoying "captcha" for sane users who logged in
    • This just needs the feature to be configured properly. Then a system is required to add people to the exempt users list after their intentions have been verified. -- PaulBoddie 2010-03-15 15:44:04

    • Is there an automatic group for users with 10 or more successful edits? -- techtonik 2010-03-15 17:56:09

    • I think it all has to be done manually. It would be quite easy for spammers to make accounts, perform edits manually and then automate more spamming. The TextCha page has plenty of discussion about this, but I agree that it would be nicer to have some kind of workflow in the Wiki itself. -- PaulBoddie 2010-03-15 19:21:55

    • It is easier for them to automate TextCha entry than enter it 10 times manually and in the end have their accounts banned. -- techtonik 2010-03-16 08:25:16

  • Add improved event calendar support such as that provided by EventAggregator or another similar extension

  • Switch to TracWiki syntax

    • Why? Trac's syntax, apart from the stuff that's identical to MoinMoin's syntax, is like the old MoinMoin syntax, and although it's better than MediaWiki syntax in various ways (take the link syntax and its inconsistencies), switching to it would be like reverting a number of fixes that MoinMoin applied when its syntax (particularly the link syntax) was changed in 1.6. I don't deny that bits of it can be complicated, but that's not usually the basic stuff. -- PaulBoddie 2010-03-15 15:32:26

    • Using Trac for various Python (and not only Python) I got used to separate http://links with description using space] - as it is more readable. I can't see where [LinkPattern link syntax] will conflict with anything. Anyway it is the last point in this list. -- techtonik 2010-03-15 17:27:00

    • I've become accustomed to the newer syntax now, and I think there's probably some reason why they moved away from the older syntax, possibly for extensibility reasons where spaces can appear naturally and confuse the process of isolating arguments. I've not been too impressed by the Wiki capabilities of Trac, but that might have something to do with the visually unimpressive styling of Trac for most installations and the lack of MoinMoin conveniences, not the syntax as such. -- PaulBoddie 2010-03-15 19:21:55

    • MoinMoin is a general purpose wiki like MediaWiki and it may happen that old syntax created problems with porting content between them. However, for software projects, Trac and Google Code were inspired by the old variant of markup and there is no single ticket to switch to MediaWiki. I would really like to see reasoning behind the choice in MoinMoin 1.6, and know if there is a preference to turn on the old markup. -- techtonik 2010-03-16 08:20:29

    • A good summary of why the syntax was changed was posted in an IRC conversation on the #moin channel, and I've uploaded it here -- PaulBoddie 2010-04-23 11:36:53

  • There should be a "Logout" link in the left navigation (Actions)
    • Don't you see a "Logout" link under "User" or are you not using the new (and awesome) default theme? -- PaulBoddie 2011-03-25 20:53:00

      • I was using the "python" theme, now I changed to "<Default>" and I can see the "Logout", Thanks ! But it would be nice, if we can add a "Logout" link for the "python" theme. -- BaijuMuthukadan 2012-10-22 07:18:08

        • I think the "python" theme is unmaintained. There was a suggestion that the new default theme, also known as "europython", be renamed to "python" and thus appear for everyone who has chosen "python" as their theme, but that could be confusing for people. -- PaulBoddie 2011-03-25 23:01:36

Core Developer Web Resources

The Core Development Helper Tools page discusses enhancements for version control and bug tracking, particularly with regard to integration.


CategoryPythonWebsite

SiteImprovements (last edited 2020-07-04 14:12:28 by ChrisM)

Unable to edit the page? See the FrontPage for instructions.